‘Not a safe place’: Lidia Thorpe’s sexual assault allegations
Sam Hawley: Hi, I’m Sam Hawley, coming to you from Gadigal Land. This is ABC News Daily. Once again, the treatment of women in politics has come into question after the independent Senator Lidia Thorpe used parliamentary privilege to allege she’d been sexually assaulted in a stairwell at Parliament House. Today, political reporter Dana Morse on Lidia Thorpe’s allegations, and the culture at Parliament House.
Dana, we’re going to have a look and unpack these claims made in the Parliament by the independent Senator, Lidia Thorpe, because they’re really explosive….. They were made across two days
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: This person….
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: Senator Thorpe, I would just warn you, at this point…
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: …harassed me, sexually assaulted me. And the prime minister had to…
Sam Hawley: So let’s start on Wednesday evening, when the senator first raised these allegations against Victorian Senator, David Van.
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: Senator Thorpe…
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: And to have him talking about this today is an absolute disgrace on the whole Parliament….
Sam Hawley: The allegations that he, of course, denies.
David Van, Senator: It is just a lie. And I reject it. Sorry. I withdraw the word lie. It’s just not true.
Sam Hawley: She made these under parliamentary privilege. Just remind me what that is.
Dana Morse: Yeah. So the term parliamentary privilege refers to the special legal rights and immunities that apply to both houses of Parliament and the committees and the members. So it basically means that people can’t be sued or prosecuted for anything they say under parliamentary privilege, which applies in the chambers. And the purpose is so that there can be a full and open discussion of all things on the floor.
Sam Hawley: Yeah, right. So it means basically that MPs and senators, they’re protected from legal action when they speak in the Parliament.
Dana Morse: Exactly.
Sam Hawley: Okay. So let’s look now, Dana, at what led to Lidia Thorpe making these rather explosive comments in the Senate and then withdrawing them. What was happening at the time? It relates, we know, to this continuing debate about. Brittany Higgins…
Dana Morse: That’s right. So the parliamentary week has been dominated by rather intense debate about the handling of the Brittany Higgins sexual assault allegations. As part of the debate in the Senate, the Victorian Liberal Senator, David Van stood up….
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: Senator Van.
David Van, Senator: Thank you Deputy President….
Dana Morse: And criticised the Labor Party for the way it had handled the matter.
David Van, Senator: The behaviour that we saw from the Labor Party, coming from these benches, in the last year or so was disgraceful. You know, the muck that’s being thrown from that side to this side…
Dana Morse: He was saying, at the time, before Senator Thorpe made her interjection, as parliamentarians, we need to be focused on setting the standards….
David Van, Senator: …on setting the standard for all Australians and in all aspects of life….
Dana Morse: And he was talking about the muck that was being thrown from both sides of politics.
David Van, Senator: Those opposite continue to attack Senator Reynolds and throw mud across the chamber while claiming indemnity and innocence….
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: Senator Thorpe, Senator Thorpe, Senator Thorpe, please.
Sam Hawley: And this is the moment when Lidia Thorpe interjected?
Dana Morse: Yeah. So she stood up and made pretty serious allegations against Senator David Van.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: This person harassed me, sexually assaulted me….
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: Senator Thorpe, I would just warn you…
Dana Morse: And then the Senate deputy president who was presiding at the time, Andrew McLachlan, was repeatedly trying to get Senator Thorpe to sit back down.
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: Senator Thorpe, I’ve called you to order. Please be at order.
Dana Morse: He was asking Senator Thorpe to withdraw the accusation.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: I’m feeling really uncomfortable when a perpetrator is speaking about violence.
Andrew McLachlan, Deputy Senate President: That’s inappropriate and reflects poorly on the member. And I have to ask you to withdraw that.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: I can’t.
Dana Morse: She did, later, in the evening on Wednesday. But she was telling the Senate that she was doing that, withdrawing the allegation, due to Senate standing orders.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: In order to comply with the parliamentary standing orders, I withdraw those remarks. For the information of the Senate, I will make a further statement on the matter tomorrow.
Sam Hawley: Okay. So, Dana, let’s talk about what she then said on Thursday in the Senate in a moment, but Senator Van, he denied these allegations, didn’t he, in the strongest possible terms.
Dana Morse: Yes so he utterly rejected the statement in the moment. He described it as disgusting.
David Van, Senator: I utterly reject that statement, that disgusting statement outright. It is just a lie.
Dana Morse: In a statement he then issued later, he said Lidia Thorpe had made unfounded and completely untrue allegations against him and that he unequivocally denies and continues to deny them. He also said that he’d sought legal advice, and the deputy Senate president, Andrew McLachlan, said he would be referring Senator Thorpe’s comments to the Senate president, Sue Lines.
Sam Hawley: Okay. So Dana, let’s fast forward to Thursday. And Lidia Thorpe was on her feet again, and she repeated the accusations in the Senate under parliamentary privilege and she gave more detail. But this time she didn’t name anyone. What did she say?
Dana Morse: Yeah. So it was a tearful statement in the Senate by Senator Thorpe.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: So today I will speak about my experience in Parliament. When I started, I was a new senator. As all women that have walked the corridors of this building know, it is not a safe place.
Dana Morse: She made a point of saying that people have different ways of defining sexual assault, but she told the Senate she believes that she was sexually assaulted in a stairwell at Parliament House where there were no CCTV cameras and that she was cornered.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: To me it was sexual assault, and the government at the time recognised it as such. No one witnessed what happened in the stairwell, as there are no cameras in stairwells….
Dana Morse: This time she didn’t name anybody, but she said a man had followed her and aggressively propositioned her and inappropriately touched her. She said in the Senate that she felt so unsafe at Parliament House afterwards that she used to always make sure that she had someone with her when she was walking in the corridors.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: I was afraid to walk out of the office door. I would open the door slightly and check the coast was clear before stepping out. It was to the degree that I had to be accompanied by someone whenever I walked inside this building. That is how the Greens supported me, and I thank them for that…
Dana Morse: She gave a pretty vivid description of the way that Parliament House is laid out, that there are often long, dark corridors with no windows and no people in them. She said that at the time she raised it with the Senate president and others, and she thought that the Liberal Party was taking her accusations seriously, especially after they moved David Vann’s office, which had been right next to hers. She told the Parliament she wouldn’t be taking the matter to police, but she will continue to speak out about abuse and harassment.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: I will not pursue legal action. I want to focus on making this place safe for everyone. And at this moment it is not a safe place for women.
Sam Hawley: Okay, so serious allegations. What’s been the response then to this?
Dana Morse: Well, very quickly, Peter Dutton moved to remove Senator Van from the Liberal Party and a short.
Peter Dutton, Opposition Leader: Time ago I advised Senator Van of my decision that he should no longer sit in the Liberal Party party room.
Dana Morse: He said that further allegations had come forward overnight regarding Senator Van’s conduct. Peter Dutton said that didn’t mean that he was making any judgement on an individual’s guilt or otherwise…
Peter Dutton, Opposition Leader: At the outset I want to make clear a very clear that I’m not making any judgement on the veracity of allegations or any individual.
Dana Morse: He’s referred the matter to the Parliamentary Workplace Support Services as well.
Sam Hawley: And what about Senator Van? What’s he said about this now?
Dana Morse: So he’s confirmed that his office was moved, after Senator Thorpe made a complaint in 2021 that his behaviour was making her uncomfortable. He told the Senate the move was because Senator Thorpe was behaving irrationally…
David Van, Senator: There should be, and must be, an investigation into these outrageous claims so they can be proved to be false.
Dana Morse: He says if allegations are made, they should be made to the police.
Sam Hawley: Mhm. Okay. So as we’ve said, this is just so incredibly messy by now, and the public’s watching on and it goes, Dana, doesn’t it, to this issue of parliamentary culture. Again, it’s really not a good look, I wouldn’t have thought, in the public eye.
Dana Morse: Yeah, and this comes at a time where the former sex discrimination commissioner Kate Jenkins had said that she was really confident that the parliamentary culture had changed for the better…
Interviewer: How much do you think the culture in Parliament and our politics has actually changed?
Kate Jenkins, former Sex Discrimination Commissioner: I’m really confident that our parliament has changed. They’ve put in place, but.
Dana Morse: Certainly that’s not what we’re seeing play out in the halls right now. And it certainly says something that a lot of the victim-survivor support services that have been spoken to about these stories have expressed that… They’ve been very disappointed by the way that these allegations have been handled in the media. It’s certainly brought to light an ugly side of politics, and it doesn’t feel like this story is going anywhere any time soon.
Lidia Thorpe, Independent Senator: I will not go to the police. This is my choice. But I will continue to speak out against the abuse and harassment that happens in this building. That is my choice.
Sam Hawley: Dana Morse is a political reporter based at Parliament House in Canberra. If this episode has raised any issues for you, help is available at 1800-RESPECT. This episode was produced by Veronica Apap, Anna John and Sam Dunn, who also did the mix. Our supervising producer is Stephen Smiley. If you’re looking for something else to listen to this weekend, the ABC has a new podcast out this month called Quick Smart. Each episode, host Tegan Taylor unpacks a big idea in under ten minutes. There are a couple of episodes already available on the Listen app. Here’s a trailer to give you a sense of the show. I’m Sam Hawley, ABC News Daily. We’ll be back again on Monday. Thanks for listening.
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