Has Israel gone too far?

Sam Hawley: Hi, I’m Sam Hawley, coming to you from Gadigal land. This is ABC News Daily. As the civilian death toll in Gaza continues to rise, there are growing calls for a ceasefire, but Israel and the United States are rejecting that. But is Israel operating within the rules of war and is its response? A month after the Hamas attack proportionate? Today, president of the US Middle East project and a former Israeli peace negotiator, Daniel Levy, on why Western nations need to reassess their approach to Israel’s bombing and invasion of Gaza. Daniel, you were part of Israel’s delegation to peace talks with Palestinians back in the 1990s. Things looked much more positive. Then there was a moment of hope, wasn’t there?

Daniel Levy: There was. Sam, I think as one looks back on that, the Palestinians had basically come around to a position of a mini Palestinian state on just 22% of the land. We were really in the heart of the unipolar American moment of the 90s, and it felt like with an American assist, this could be carried over the finishing line. Let’s remember, you know, this is the decade in which you saw the massive breakthrough in apartheid South Africa. Rainbow nation, Mandela out of prison. The big breakthrough in Northern Ireland, Good Friday agreement. And this felt like it might be the one with those things. And here we are 30 years later. Things could not be worse.

Sam Hawley: The UN secretary general, Antonio Guterres, is troubled by what he’s seeing in Gaza.

António Guterres – UN Secretary General: This is nothing in nothing should reduce our total rejection for the horrible things that Hamas did the 7th of October. But we need to distinguish. Hamas is one thing. The Palestinian people is another. If we don’t make that distinction, I think it’s humanity itself that loses meaning.

Sam Hawley: So we clearly now at a low point. The death toll is unprecedented. 1200 people were killed in the attack on Israel, and more than 10,000 people have been killed in Gaza, according to the health ministry run by Hamas.

Daniel Levy: It is, and I think maybe we just need to start by absorbing the magnitude of that. I think it’s also important because you mentioned the those numbers of casualties on the Palestinian side, including over 4000 children. And I think it’s important to dispel this sense that, well, maybe these figures aren’t reliable. And, you know, it’s a lot less than that. Unfortunately, that is almost certainly not the case. Unfortunately, we’ve had previous rounds of major escalation, never these kinds of numbers. But whenever that has happened, at the end of hostilities, the numbers that were released by the Gaza Health Ministry run by Hamas, the numbers released by the Israeli side and the numbers released by the UN have all been very closely aligned. Deviation of maybe 5% maximum. You have 13,000 UN personnel on the ground who are saying these look accurate, and those Palestinian numbers are ticking up every single day, which which also speaks to the inability to hide behind the idea that this is proportionate and, to be honest, to hide behind the idea that this can go on. This has to end.

Sam Hawley: Well, you mentioned the word proportionate and let’s talk about that a bit more in a moment. Israel now says its troops are at the heart of Gaza City as they try to root out these Hamas terrorists. The Israeli defence minister, Yoav Gallant, has been characterising Gaza itself as a base for terrorism.

Yoav Gallant – Israel Minister of Defence: Gaza is the biggest terror base ever built by mankind. This whole city is one big terror base. Underground kilometres of tunnels that connect to hospitals and schools connect to each other in order to act as a basis of terror from which they can hurt the citizens of Israel and IDF soldiers.

Sam Hawley: While citizens are still fleeing from the north to the south, and the US has said that Israel has agreed to safe passage for a few hours every day. Well, this is the thing.

Daniel Levy: There is no safe passage. There have been multiple incidents of Palestinians who have heeded this call, but there have been multiple incidents of Palestinian civilians being killed en route to the supposed safety of the South. But the south is also being bombed. So there’s nowhere that’s actually safe in Gaza. Not the routes for escape, not the places they’re escaping to, not the places they’re taking shelter in.

Sam Hawley: Well, let’s return to that concept of proportionality. Israel says this is its right to self-defence, because Hamas terrorists started this with their brutal attack on October the 7th, in the most horrifying of circumstances.

Benjamin Netanyahu – Israeli Prime Minister: Regardless of who stands with Israel, Israel will fight until this battle is won and Israel will prevail…

Sam Hawley: Western governments, including, of course, our own Australia, says they support that right to self-defence.

Joe Biden – US President: Israel has the right, and I would add, responsibility to respond to the slaughter of their people. And we will ensure Israel has what it needs to defend itself against these terrorists….

Penny Wong – Foreign Affairs Minister: Israel defends itself matters. And when we affirm Israel’s right to defend itself, what what we are also saying is Israel must comply and observe international humanitarian law…

Sam Hawley: What is legitimate self-defence.

Daniel Levy: So this is very important. We have to acknowledge that October 6th, the day before, this was a pretty normal day if you were Israeli. October 6th was a day of occupation, denial of freedom and rights, statelessness, unpredictability, life under a brutal, structurally violent regime. If you were Palestinian. Palestinians have a right to resist military occupation. They do not have a right to do that in ways that violate international law. And I think there can be no doubt that there have been attacks on civilians in the past, and the severity of the attack on Israeli civilians was in violation of that law. Now Israel has the right to self-defence, and that is an important principle. But that principle accords you the right to self-defence within the rules of Geneva conventions of international legality in a time of war, in acting in self-defence. But when you look at 4000 children dead, when the secretary general of the United Nations is calling Gaza a graveyard for children, the claim that this is proportional, this isn’t self-defence that Hamas hides amongst civilians and therefore it’s okay. No, you still have a responsibility and you have not lived up to that responsibility. And so I think the ability to say no, we must be allowed to continue this military mission is not something that the West should be willing to uphold. And under these circumstances. And let’s, you know, just be honest with ourselves. The West, unfortunately, is isolated now.

Sam Hawley: Just on that point that Hamas is endangering civilian lives. That’s Israel’s point, that they’re using them as human shields. That’s right, isn’t it? It is endangering civilians.

Daniel Levy: I’m afraid I don’t accept that. It is not good enough to hide behind that excuse, because you are bombing indiscriminately, and you are doing so from a position of such military superiority.

Sam Hawley: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he’s absolutely rejected calls for a ceasefire. While more than 200 hostages are still being held in Gaza. Would things change if the hostages were released?

Daniel Levy: I think they would. I think the hostages would get out and then Israel would continue the bombing. And then the people who are working to get a mediated outcome to this would have absolutely no leverage, which is shocking, because of course, the civilians being held to a hostages should not be used as leverage. That would be the outcome. Unfortunately, Prime Minister Netanyahu is not really being pushed towards a ceasefire. The Americans have asked for these limited pauses, perhaps now of slightly longer duration, to get prisoner releases, and that’s the reality of it. Hamas could say we will release the prisoners if Israel raises the white flag and allows all the refugees to return to their original homes in southern Israel. That’s not going to happen either. So in such a situation, what you need is a mediated outcome where both sides stand down from their maximalist positions, and that can allow for the prisoners, the hostages, to come out every day that this goes on, by the way, their lives are endangered more as well.

Sam Hawley: And, of course, the US secretary of state, Antony Blinken, backs Israel’s rejection of a cease fire.

Antony Blinken – US Secretary of State: Those calling for an immediate cease fire have an obligation to explain how to address the unacceptable result. It would likely bring about Hamas left in place with more than 200 hostages with the capacity and stated intent to repeat October 7th again and again and again.

Sam Hawley: What are the risks of a cease fire for Israel? Would it enable Hamas to attack Israel again.

Daniel Levy: As long as the root causes of this conflict are not addressed? As long as Palestinians are people who collectively are living without their rights, there will not be security for Israel. That just doesn’t happen in this world. The longer this goes on, it’s not going to just be about Gaza. We already see in the broader Palestinian expanse, things are deteriorating. In the West Bank. 160 plus Palestinians have been killed there. Thousands have been arrested. This could get much nastier. We haven’t seen things explode in East Jerusalem and in the holy sites yet. And of course, we are in a regional conflagration, but it hasn’t reached a height yet. You don’t have a full scale war between Israel and Hezbollah. You don’t have a war between America and Iran. But without getting to doomsday, there’s no guarantee that that’s the path we won’t go down. That is a serious danger as long as this crisis continues and until we get to grips with the Gaza cease fire, those dangers hold. Which is why I think we probably are closer to a more serious American effort. But it’s happening way too slowly.

Sam Hawley: Daniel. Let’s return to that term. Proportionate response. The US and its allies say they support Israel’s right to a proportionate response. So what actually is a proportionate response?

Daniel Levy: I would ask those who have stood by and allowed this level of killing and destruction to happen, that question. I can’t answer that question for them. If this doesn’t lead people to step in and say, enough, you’ve overstepped the bounds. You’ve proved you’re incapable of working within international law. We cannot allow this to continue, then I don’t know what does. So I’m not the person to ask that question.

Sam Hawley: For now, at the height of this war. What is the responsibility of the United States and Australia?

Daniel Levy: It’s very important not to lose sight of the pain that is felt in Israel as a consequence of October 7th. Wrapping one’s arms around Israel as an ally is not a bad place to be. In the act of wrapping one’s arms around Israel. You encourage Israel to think Palestinians can be crushed, that this kind of devastation is going to bring it security, that it’s okay to pretend this will end well. When you are engaging in this kind of wanton devastation, then I don’t think you’re being a friend.

Sam Hawley: Daniel Levy is the president of the US Middle East project and a former Israeli peace negotiator. This episode was produced by Nell Whitehead, Anna John and Sam Dunn, who also did the mix. Our supervising producer is David Coady. I’m Sam Hawley. ABC NewsDaily will be back again tomorrow. Thanks for listening.